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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>None of them are actually experimental in that they’re still in clinical trials. That’s just the classification everyone uses to avoid paying for them. I don’t really understand why – the cost of necessary nursing care during the months-long recovery period for the discectomy and fusion is much more than the cost of the surgery. However, I haven’t been able to find any exceptions so far. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Thanks, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Logan G. Harbaugh<br><a href="mailto:logan@lharba.com">logan@lharba.com</a></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>530-243-1346</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>1547 Magnolia Ave.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Redding, CA 96001</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><a href="http://www.lharba.com/">www.lharba.com</a></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ipg-smz [mailto:ipg-smz-bounces@netpress.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kishore Jethanandani<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 26, 2019 6:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> ipg-smz@netpress.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ipg-smz] Medicare<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>If it is experimental, there might be clinical trials which will charge much less if at all. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='user-select: none'><tr><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality5&"><span style='text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=32 height=32 id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://s3.amazonaws.com/mailtrack-signature/sender_notified.gif" alt=Mailtrack></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#777777'>Sender notified by</span> <br><a href="https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality5&"><span style='color:#4374F7'>Mailtrack</span></a> <span style='font-size:1.0pt'>06/26/19, 06:37:26 PM</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'></td></tr></table></div><p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 id="_x0000_i1026" src="https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/288cead3465860f7121fb4a6925835387f9f4ed2.png?u=4496385"><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 6:18 PM Logan Harbaugh <<a href="mailto:logan@lharba.com">logan@lharba.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have a malformed L4 vertebra, which slips sideways and pinches the nerves, causing sciatica. The standard treatment which most insurance will cover is a double discectomy and fusion, which has about a 60% success rate and requires a 9” incision in the belly, with a six-month recovery time. The less-invasive modern treatments are classified by Medicare and the insurance companies as experimental, and are not covered. The nominal cost for those treatments is around $120k, so even with discounts, it’s way outside my ability to pay. At some point, when the pain gets unbearable, I may gamble on one of the alternatives, but for now, I just do my best to live with it. My ‘medical plan’ is to win the lottery. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Thanks, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Logan G. Harbaugh<br><a href="mailto:logan@lharba.com" target="_blank">logan@lharba.com</a></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>530-243-1346</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>1547 Magnolia Ave.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Redding, CA 96001</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><a href="http://www.lharba.com/" target="_blank">www.lharba.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ipg-smz [mailto:<a href="mailto:ipg-smz-bounces@netpress.org" target="_blank">ipg-smz-bounces@netpress.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kishore Jethanandani<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 26, 2019 5:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ipg-smz@netpress.org" target="_blank">ipg-smz@netpress.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ipg-smz] Medicare</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Right, it does not work in every situation. BTW, you might want to check Medibid which provides options within the USA if you are able to pay cash. The cost of cash only treatments is a fraction of the insured treatments and often less than your deductible. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><a href="https://www.medibid.com/" target="_blank">https://www.medibid.com/</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>There are other cash-only surgery centers in the USA which have competitive offers. Back surgery is high risk in any case and a bad outcome can mean life-long disability. I had severe back pain which was easily cured with yoga. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality5&" target="_blank"><span style='text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=32 height=32 id="gmail-m_2214271891693344778_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="https://s3.amazonaws.com/mailtrack-signature/sender_notified.gif" alt=Mailtrack></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#777777'>Sender notified by</span> <br><a href="https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality5&" target="_blank"><span style='color:#4374F7'>Mailtrack</span></a> <span style='font-size:1.0pt'>06/26/19, 05:14:02 PM</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'></td></tr></table></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><img border=0 id="gmail-m_2214271891693344778_x005f_x0000_i1026" src="https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/ed445bf23f419bbedeacda1545bf69a1c4b2af6a.png?u=4496385"><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 1:18 PM Logan Harbaugh <<a href="mailto:logan@lharba.com" target="_blank">logan@lharba.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here too. I’ve considered medical tourism to several countries for the back surgery I need, which can be 20% of the cost here, but the problem is that it’s got about a 20% chance of a less than favorable outcome, and little or no recourse if you go overseas. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Thanks, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Logan G. Harbaugh<br><a href="mailto:logan@lharba.com" target="_blank">logan@lharba.com</a></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>530-243-1346</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>1547 Magnolia Ave.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Redding, CA 96001</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><a href="http://www.lharba.com/" target="_blank">www.lharba.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ipg-smz [mailto:<a href="mailto:ipg-smz-bounces@netpress.org" target="_blank">ipg-smz-bounces@netpress.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kishore Jethanandani<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 26, 2019 1:10 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ipg-smz@netpress.org" target="_blank">ipg-smz@netpress.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ipg-smz] Medicare</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Well, many Canadians are seeking medical treatment overseas, not so "civilized countries. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><a href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/canadian-medical-tourism_n_5949b405e4b0db570d3778ff" target="_blank">https://www.huffpost.com/entry/canadian-medical-tourism_n_5949b405e4b0db570d3778ff</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality5&" target="_blank"><span style='text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=32 height=32 id="gmail-m_2214271891693344778gmail-m_-7985271499679533164_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="https://s3.amazonaws.com/mailtrack-signature/sender_notified.gif" alt=Mailtrack></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#777777'>Sender notified by</span> <br><a href="https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality5&" target="_blank"><span style='color:#4374F7'>Mailtrack</span></a> <span style='font-size:1.0pt'>06/26/19, 01:09:29 PM</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt 4.0pt'></td></tr></table></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><img border=0 id="gmail-m_2214271891693344778gmail-m_-7985271499679533164_x005f_x0000_i1026" src="https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/8faa19b0b514618a4090a415deb368905f5fe290.png?u=4496385"><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 11:55 AM Marcel Gagne <<a href="mailto:marcel@marcelgagne.com" target="_blank">marcel@marcelgagne.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I live in Canada. We have universal health care. 15 years ago, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer during my physical. The doctor felt around my neck and asked,"How long has this been here?" to which I replied, "How long has what been there." A week later, I was getting tested at the hospital with radioactive tracers, followed by more ultrasound tests, followed by a visit to an oncologist who took a biopsy of my neck by inserting a needle in my throat. <br><br>"Hold still, Marcel. This will only take a minute."<br><br>For the record, when someone inserts a needle in your neck, you hold still. Perfectly still.<br><br>A week or two later, I had the results. Thyroid cancer. We discussed options, and in less than three months since my physical, I was being wheeled in to the operating room to have my thyroid removed by an awesome surgeon. A few weeks after later, I went in to a leaded isolation room for radioactive iodine therapy where I spent three days without human contact while the radioactive iodine killed off any thyroid cancer cells stupid to have around. <br><br>Then, over the course of several years, I had numerous additional tests, blood tests, ultrasounds, and regular visits with oncologists, and more. Two years ago, I was declared officially cancer free after a final round of tests. <br><br>Total bill handed me for all these procedures was $0. Because, in Canada, as in many civilized countries throughout the world, we have universal health care. Don't tell me it's baloney or a myth waiting to be busted. Universal health care is what civilized nations do to take care of their citizens.<br><br>-- <br>Marcel Gagné<br>Writer and Free Thinker at Large<br>Note: This massagee wos nat speel or gramer-checkered.<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Christine Hall" <<a href="mailto:christine@fossforce.com" target="_blank">christine@fossforce.com</a>><br>To: "ipg-smz" <<a href="mailto:ipg-smz@netpress.org" target="_blank">ipg-smz@netpress.org</a>><br>Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 10:58:41 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Ipg-smz] Medicare<br><br>This is getting political, but that's not true. Social security fell <br>apart when the funds kept being used to fund other services.<br><br>Christine Hall<br>Publisher & Editor<br>FOSS Force: Keeping tech free<br><a href="http://fossforce.com" target="_blank">http://fossforce.com</a><br><br>On 6/26/19 9:43 AM, Stephen Satchell wrote:<br>> On 6/25/19 8:04 PM, Kishore Jethanandani wrote:<br>>> This idea of universal care or Medicare-for-all is such baloney--a myth<br>>> waiting to be busted.<br>> <br>> One size does NOT fit all. In some respects, we have baked<br>> communisism/socialism into government institutions with the idea that<br>> "if you make more, you can pay more" instead of charging a flat fee<br>> (tax) for services. Social Security went further -- it was a Ponzi<br>> scheme that fell apart when the Baby Boomers came of retirement age on<br>> one hand, and the raiding of the trust fund by Congress on the other.<br>> <br>> Reminds me of unions and pension funds -- "the money was just sitting<br>> there."<br>> <br>> Minimum wage? What a bad idea. How about "minimum profit<br>> participation" instead?<br>> <br><br>-- <br>Ipg-smz mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Ipg-smz@netpress.org" target="_blank">Ipg-smz@netpress.org</a><br><a href="http://netpress.org/mailman/listinfo/ipg-smz_netpress.org" target="_blank">http://netpress.org/mailman/listinfo/ipg-smz_netpress.org</a><br><br>-- <br>Ipg-smz mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Ipg-smz@netpress.org" target="_blank">Ipg-smz@netpress.org</a><br><a href="http://netpress.org/mailman/listinfo/ipg-smz_netpress.org" target="_blank">http://netpress.org/mailman/listinfo/ipg-smz_netpress.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-- 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